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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. :   Phat wrote:Don&amp;#039;t use &amp;#099;ookies...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88674.html#88674</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=11550">theSCIENTIST</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 12&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 7:41am<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><img src="forum_images/quote_box.png" title="Originally posted by Phat" alt="Originally posted by Phat" style="vertical-align: text-bottom;" /> <strong>Phat wrote:</strong><br /><br />Don't use &#099;ookies and auto login...</td></tr></table><br />Tell me then another way to check if a user has permission to view a page? Even if you use Session variables that's a &#099;ookie also, the only difference is that it is destroyed after it's timeout or browser closure, as for the auto-login, I can live without it, but for a forum app, most users like it.<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><img src="forum_images/quote_box.png" title="Originally posted by JJLatWebWiz" alt="Originally posted by JJLatWebWiz" style="vertical-align: text-bottom;" /> <strong>JJLatWebWiz wrote:</strong><br /><br />I hear you. It's a serious concern because of the number of people reporting it. I periodically spend time exploring different methods of attack using &#099;ookie forging, and I'm fairly comfortable saying that almost all &#099;ookie based exploits are not a weakness in the target app, like WWF. If I create a web site that steals &#099;ookies or compromise your machine by sending an email with a &#099;ookie-napper, I haven't exploited WWF. I've taken advantage of another vulnerability to use against WWF.<br /><br />It might be a good idea to encode more information into the &#099;ookie to obfuscate the meaning, but there are a couple reasons why that might not fix anything. First, if it's not encrypted with a decryption password unknown to the hacker, it's going to be a simple thing for the hacker to encode his own forged &#099;ookie. Second, if the attack is a "stolen" &#099;ookie, then assume the &#099;ookie data is encrypted with an unbreakable cipher but the attacker steals your &#099;ookie, how will the web app determine that the &#099;ookie was stolen? If it's just decrypted and decoded, it didn't do anything but obscure the meaning. But a hacker will always know the meaning unless every users of WWF modifies the program to scramble the meaning. Even then, figuring out the meaning probably won't take too long.<br /><br />You should assume that the hacker always knows what values are scrambled in the &#099;ookie and always knows the meaning of every variable. And unless you understand the attack, then you're counting on luck that your fix will work. Maybe a more secure solution is to prevent &#099;ookie-based login for admin accounts.<br /><br />I could be wrong.</td></tr></table><br />I'm going to have to really understand this attack, preferably re-create it. I use &#099;ookies in one way or another and feel kind of stuck without them, I remember reading a few years back that &#099;ookies are bad, and here we are now still debating the issue, this time the concern is even bigger.]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. :   theSCIENTIST wrote: The problem...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88661.html#88661</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=19649">JJLatWebWiz</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 12&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 1:15am<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><img src="forum_images/quote_box.png" title="Originally posted by theSCIENTIST" alt="Originally posted by theSCIENTIST" style="vertical-align: text-bottom;" /> <strong>theSCIENTIST wrote:</strong><br /><br /><DIV><BR>The problem here is that I hear time and time again about how some app was hacked bacause the &#099;ookie was stealed, how the heck so? <BR><BR>The other part of the problem is that I can't re-create this hack, therefore can't effectively secure against it, what I'm doing, is, securing based on guess work, if someone was to create a fake &#099;ookie he would need these variables with these values, so lets get those values all scrambled up and variables with less meaningful names of what they do.<BR></DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV></td></tr></table></DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I hear you.&nbsp; It's a serious concern because of the number of people reporting it.&nbsp; I periodically spend time exploring different methods of attack using &#099;ookie forging, and I'm fairly comfortable saying that almost all &#099;ookie based exploits are not a weakness in the target app, like WWF.&nbsp; If I create a web site that steals &#099;ookies or compromise your machine by sending an email with a &#099;ookie-napper, I haven't exploited WWF.&nbsp; I've taken advantage of another vulnerability to use against WWF.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>It might be a good idea to encode more information into the &#099;ookie to obfuscate the meaning, but there are a couple reasons why that might not fix anything.&nbsp; First, if it's not encrypted with a decryption password unknown to the hacker, it's going to be a simple thing for the hacker to encode his own forged &#099;ookie.&nbsp; Second, if the attack is a "stolen" &#099;ookie, then assume the &#099;ookie data is encrypted with an unbreakable cipher but the attacker steals your &#099;ookie, how will the web app determine that the &#099;ookie was stolen?&nbsp; If it's just decrypted and decoded, it didn't do anything but obscure the meaning.&nbsp; But a hacker will always know the meaning unless every users of WWF modifies the program to scramble the meaning.&nbsp; Even then, figuring out the meaning probably won't take too long.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>You should assume that the hacker always knows what values are scrambled in the &#099;ookie and always knows the meaning of every variable.&nbsp;&nbsp;And unless you understand the attack, then you're counting on luck that your fix will work.&nbsp; Maybe a more secure solution is to prevent &#099;ookie-based login for admin accounts.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I could be wrong.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><img src="forum_images/quote_box.png" title="Originally posted by theSCIENTIST" alt="Originally posted by theSCIENTIST" style="vertical-align: text-bottom;" /> <strong>theSCIENTIST wrote:</strong><br /><br /><BR>Comparing against the IP, defies the purpose of using &#099;ookies to auto-login, since many ISPs still assign IPs dinamically, not fixed, maybe when IP v6 comes into place, ISPs will then assign a fixed IP to all customers, which in it-self should allow us developers to go into many new directions.</td></tr></table></DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Good point.&nbsp; I've been spoiled by the static IP for so long, I forget there is the other world out there.</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. : Don&amp;#039;t use &amp;#099;ookies and...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88658.html#88658</link>
   <description>
    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=8513">Phat</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 10:08pm<br /><br />Don't use &#099;ookies and auto login...]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:08:04 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. : Interesting reading.  The problem...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88636.html#88636</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=11550">theSCIENTIST</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 3:41pm<br /><br />Interesting reading.<br /><br />The problem here is that I hear time and time again about how some app was hacked bacause the &#099;ookie was stealed, how the heck so?<br /><br />The other part of the problem is that I can't re-create this hack, therefore can't effectively secure against it, what I'm doing, is, securing based on guess work, if someone was to create a fake &#099;ookie he would need these variables with these values, so lets get those values all scrambled up and variables with less meaningful names of what they do.<br /><br />Comparing against the IP, defies the purpose of using &#099;ookies to auto-login, since many ISPs still assign IPs dinamically, not fixed, maybe when IP v6 comes into place, ISPs will then assign a fixed IP to all customers, which in it-self should allow us developers to go into many new directions.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 15:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. :   theSCIENTIST wrote:...one cause...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88631.html#88631</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=19649">JJLatWebWiz</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 11:44am<br /><br /><table width="99%"><tr><td class="BBquote"><img src="forum_images/quote_box.png" title="Originally posted by theSCIENTIST" alt="Originally posted by theSCIENTIST" style="vertical-align: text-bottom;" /> <strong>theSCIENTIST wrote:</strong><br /><br />...one cause for concern I have is this &#099;ookie impersonation bussiness.&nbsp;<BR><BR> I know there's tools out there that can write custom &#099;ookies in ones system, but the user still have to know the victims user ID and whatever else, which makes me think that there's more to this than just set a &#099;ookie with the victims data on it. <BR><BR>I have changed all my apps to store &#099;ookie logged info encoded &#091; messThis(usrID) &#093; then just unmessThis() to read back, this should make it more difficult for a hacker to understand &#099;ookie data and therefore re-create it. <BR><BR>&#067;ookie wise, what else can one do to secure &#099;ookies?</td></tr></table> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I think the&nbsp;meaningful &#099;ookie here is the one that is stored to automatically log a user in.&nbsp; But the vulnerability here is not WWF, but everywhere else.&nbsp; Take the Admin account for example.&nbsp; The &#099;ookie contains the user_code which is the username ("administrator") with a randomly generated minimum 10 digit hex code appended to the end ("824AAZE76F", for example).&nbsp; So in order to create a fake &#099;ookie that will log in someone else as the admin, the attacker must also guess the user_code, not just the username.&nbsp; Even knowing the algorithm that built the hex extension, guessing the hex extension is no trivial task.&nbsp; It seems to me that it is more likely that a hacker will acquire the &#099;ookie by&nbsp;dumb luck or by exploiting some other vulnerability outside of the WWF code.&nbsp; Cross-site scripting and a couple dozen other&nbsp;security holes IE, Outlook, IIS, and Windows, viruses, spyware, trojans, man-in-th-middle,&nbsp;packet sniffing, etc. etc.&nbsp;could all be used to attack the PC used by the administrator or the server itself.&nbsp; The hacker is probably not going to tell you how he did it.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>However, that made me think of your last question.&nbsp; What can be done to make &#099;ookies more secure?</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>The point&nbsp;of such a &#099;ookie is to eliminate the need to log in, so it would be self defeating to require a password of any kind.&nbsp; Even if you encrypt the &#099;ookie contents with an unbreakable cipher, what happens if someone else acquires that exact &#099;ookie?&nbsp; The trick, I guess, is to make that &#099;ookie meaningless if it's used from a different computer and preventing&nbsp;modification or construction of a &#099;ookie that WOULD work somewhere else.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>If the encrypted &#099;ookie contained some information that was unique to the PC that asked for the &#099;ookie, the &#099;ookie could be made useless anywhere else.&nbsp; But how do you get reliably unique information about the person's PC?&nbsp; You could use a Java applet to pull hardware data from the system, but that probably will not work&nbsp;for a significant number of computer devices in the world.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Instead of storing the user_code, you could store some encrypted representation that includes the user's IP address, that way, an attacker has to decrypt the &#099;ookie to get the user_code and encrypt their own fake &#099;ookie, or guess the user_code and spoof the IP.&nbsp; This wouldn't change the vulnerability to all the other attacks, but forging a <U>meaningful</U> &#099;ookie would be even more difficult.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Or, create an encrypted code to store in the &#099;ookie and log the code and the IP address in a separate database.&nbsp; When someone tries to use that &#099;ookie, the server will only allow it if it comes from the stored IP.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>All is lost if the data is compromised at the server level though.</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. : That can be solved using a salt,...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88622.html#88622</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=11550">theSCIENTIST</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 6:09am<br /><br />That can be solved using a salt, now this salt can be generated on app install and stored on the Author table as cookSalt or something, and you could make this salt unique in space and time by using the user IP and system time (no one in the world would be using the same IP at the same time) then a hacker can't decode because he doesn't know the salt.<br /><br />I'm talking about encoding here not encryption, encoding can do a good job and it's processing penalties are negligible compared to more complex encryption.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 06:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. : The problem with using encoding...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88616.html#88616</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=1">WebWiz-Bruce</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 5:48am<br /><br />The problem with using encoding for the &#099;ookie in an application thatcan be downloaded by anyone, like web wiz forums, is that you also haveto include the code to un-encode the &#099;ookie.<br><br>This means that a hacker can simply use the un-encode part of the forums code to un-encode any &#099;ookies<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. : I&amp;#039;m always on a quest to...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88614.html#88614</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=11550">theSCIENTIST</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 5:31am<br /><br />I'm always on a quest to further enhance, further secure my applications, specially user authentication/authorization, and one cause for concern I have is this &#099;ookie impersonation bussiness.<br /><br />All my apps use &#099;ookies to maintain login state, I know there's tools out there that can write custom &#099;ookies in ones system, but the user still have to know the victims user ID and whatever else, which makes me think that there's more to this than just set a &#099;ookie with the victims data on it.<br /><br />I have changed all my apps to store &#099;ookie logged info encoded &#091; messThis(usrID) &#093; then just unmessThis() to read back, this should make it more difficult for a hacker to understand &#099;ookie data and therefore re-create it.<br /><br />&#067;ookie wise, what else can one do to secure &#099;ookies?]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 05:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. : There are tons of exploits out...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88602.html#88602</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=19649">JJLatWebWiz</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 5:49pm<br /><br />There are tons of exploits out there.&nbsp; If you're on a shared hosting server, then your site is only as secure the server itself and the least secure site running on that same machine.&nbsp; Hackers are liars and con artists who train continuously to improve their skills at deception and misdirection.&nbsp; They'll intentionally leave trails that lead to the wrong conclusion about the source of insecurity.&nbsp; While you're focusing on the security of your forum, you and your host are NOT looking at the file and folder permissions&nbsp;to C:\Windows (or c:\winnt on <EM>your</EM> server).<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Not to say that WWF is not a vector for attack, it&nbsp;absolutely is one way to escalate access to a site and server.&nbsp; Especially if WWF has not been installed and configured in a secure method.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I recently had one of the sites I maintain get hacked.&nbsp; I was using an older version of WWF that didn't yet have the upload capability, yet the hacker still chose to cause damage only to the forum.&nbsp; I suspect they do that because forums are&nbsp;the most visited part of most sites that have forums.&nbsp; I found a hacker tool planted in the forum folder.&nbsp; But, knowing that WWF could not have been used to upload&nbsp;the hacker tool and that I had no anonymous FTP account, I began searching for the origin.&nbsp; With only the anonymous IIS user account, I was able to navigate to the root of the c: drive, see all files there and in the windows and system32 folders.&nbsp; I could download, upload, and delete files.&nbsp; I could get to all other sites sharing the same server and modify the contents of their folders.&nbsp; Still as anonymous, I could download the forum's MDB file, make changes, including changing the password, then upload the changes replacing the original MDB.&nbsp; Basically, there was almost nothing I could NOT do.&nbsp; I could have utterly destroyed the entire server.&nbsp; I suspect that the hacker dropped his utility on my site from another site hosted on the same machine.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>If the hacker will give you more details, we'll all be better off.&nbsp; My feeling is that a real hacker would not talk to you at all, while&nbsp;a wanna-bee, script kiddie, is probably mis-directing you.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Make sure you follow the WWF installation directions to the end to make your data as secure as possible.&nbsp; Keep incremental backups of the data.&nbsp; Periodically check the Admin email address and password hash &amp; salt for changes.&nbsp; Ask your host if the "Everyone" account can read the root of C:, C:\Winnt; and C:\Winnt\System32.&nbsp; Your host might not even admit it, but most hosts have the default user rights still and are at extreme risk.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>My 2 cents.</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2005 17:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title><![CDATA[&#067;ookie Bug Exploit. : is he willing to share his method...]]></title>
   <link>https://forums.webwiz.net/cookie-bug-exploit_topic16170_post88596.html#88596</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="https://forums.webwiz.net/member_profile.asp?PF=2216">dj air</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 16170<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10&nbsp;August&nbsp;2005 at 4:05pm<br /><br />is he willing to share his method for the security of the forum software?<br>where is this &#099;ookie bug .<br><br>somewhere he has tried to get the Usercode and insert the &#099;ookie into his system and therefore able to access admin area<br><br>not sure, ask if he will share more info<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2005 16:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
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