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ASP, ASP.NET or CGI?

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URL: https://forums.webwiz.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=10375
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Topic: ASP, ASP.NET or CGI?
Posted By: davidshq
Subject: ASP, ASP.NET or CGI?
Date Posted: 10 May 2004 at 10:38am
I've worked with BASIC languages for a number of years now, for the fun of it, and for business...But still am only an intermediate at best. I'm considering getting more serious about programming but am not sure in which language to develop. As I mentioned, I have the most skill in BASIC languages, and amongst scripting languages I've worked a bit with ASP and a tiny bit with JavaScript. What do you think is the future of ASP? Is it outdated and dead? Should one move on to ASP.NET? Should ASP(/.NET) be abandoned for a language like Perl?
My interest is mainly in developing a large and robust search engine with a better ranking algorithm. I've been considering learning Java b/c of Nutch, but wasn't sure if there was anything similar out there for a BASIC language which might be easier for me to learn. I've tried learn C++ a bit but then dropped off, so I'd have to start over again, anyways, any thoughts would be appreciated.
Respectfully,
David.

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- http://www.davemackey.net/" rel="nofollow - Dave Mackey - Virtual Home.



Replies:
Posted By: Semikolon
Date Posted: 10 May 2004 at 10:58am
ASP.Net definitely..

ASP.Net supports real programming languages. you can use almost what language you want. VB.Net, C#, J#.Net, Perl(?) etc as long as it's .Net enabled


Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 10 May 2004 at 1:18pm

Java will probably not give you the level of performance you need for search engine algorithms. ASP is going into the sunset, but will still be around for a decade or so. The next release of .NET due later this year will contain a lot of features to lower the bar for entry level development. You may want to wait until it's released to make your move.

.NET will give much better performance than ASP, but I think as your search base grows, you'll find that algorithms that do the actual search and ranking will need to be in C/C++ running on a stripped down Unix box - perhaps BSD.

I'd still use .net for the UI though. Also worth noting is that the Common Language Runtime for .net is being ported to unix - C# - IIRC. Haven't followed it enough to know it it's a good thing or something horrible like Chilisoft ASP.

 



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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me.


Posted By: davidshq
Date Posted: 10 May 2004 at 2:42pm

Thanks Semikolon and dpyers for the feedback. Dpyers, would you agree with Semikolon about using ASP.NET if I used C# for the algorithms?
Another element dpyers brought into the equation is the use of the OS. ASP.NET is generally Windows dependent isn't it? Except for the common language runtime you have mentioned (think I heard it was released on /.). Does anyone know how a Linux box performs in comparison to a Windows?
Respectfully,
David.



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- http://www.davemackey.net/" rel="nofollow - Dave Mackey - Virtual Home.


Posted By: Mart
Date Posted: 10 May 2004 at 2:49pm

You simply cannot use .NET on a linux box ATM... MS is porting it over though. Personally:

ASP = No power, have to use COM objects to do anything useful, outdated soon

ASP.NET = Very powerful, fast and secure

CGI = Outdated, slow, Anti-RAD



Posted By: michael
Date Posted: 10 May 2004 at 4:15pm
CGI is neither outdated soon nor anti-rad. It all depends on the cgi application, don't confuse cgi with perl. You can write a cgi application in C++ or any other language for that matter so it is an alternative and for certain scenarios the most cost effective solution, especially when you plan to talk to main frames. But there are plenty of other powerful things out there. It always depends on what YOU are most compfy with. But if you are coming from zero you may want to consider a language that is easily understandable. If you have some experience in basic or Visual Basic I'd recommend c# if you are deciding on .net. I wish I had, saves you picking up those nasty vb habits you picked up with older versions.

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Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 10 May 2004 at 7:28pm

A well set up linux/BSD box outperforms a well set up windows box. A poorly set up windows box out performs (IMHO) a poorly set up linux/bsd box. Windows gets a bad rap because of all the clowns running it as a desktop. A well set up W2K/W2K3 server is a pretty solid beast.

At slashdot.org a while ago, they had some survey that showed that there were more breakins on unix servers than on windows servers. You can argue with the methodology of the survey, but a lot of people with experience with both types of servers tend to more or less agree. My personal experience (25+ years unix, almost almost 15 with windows) bears out that observation. Also, if someone cracks one of my windows servers (which hasn't happened in 3/4 years), It takes from a hour to a day to recover. Someone cracks one of my unix servers, and I'm in deep sh*t - the quality of the blackhat hacker is better.

.NET is pretty fast, and real stable. It's a good dev platform. A lot of corporations went with vb.net as a vehichle for moving their vb developers forward. But vb.net is more than vb on steroids. I'ts a full oo development environment with it's own methods, practices, and design models. A lot of former vb people approaced it like "this must be the same as x in vb". for the most part, they were wrong and just wound up repeating their past bad vb on a more expensive platform.

Compared to linear or waterfall development, .net is a mindset change to how you visualize, approach, develop, and test a project. IMHO, C# leads you to an understanding of the .net platform faster than vb does. YMMV.

C/C++ cgi programs are quite fast up to a point. There are often threading issues that prevent them from being scalable beyond a certain point. C++ does better than C for threading Large/Very Large Scale apps. Some of that depends on how your network, web server, OS or kernal is tuned. What's extremely fast for 500 concurrent users, breaks down for 1000. .Net does a good job with scalability from what I've seen. The platform lends itself to dispersing an app across many boxes easier than a cgi based solution.

Don't think you'd be disappointed with .net C#. If you get a handle on the platform before you get into design, the inherent methods of the platform will lead you to encapsulate the algorithmic pieces into something that you could swap for other programs, on other platforms if the need arises.



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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me.


Posted By: davidshq
Date Posted: 11 May 2004 at 10:18am

Thanks guys for all your input. It sounds like I will probably go with ASP.NET at this point. Can someone explain why I would want to learn C# instead of VBScript? Perhaps I should learn both? VBScript would probably be easier for me to master while C# as mentioned might be more useful for the engine algorithms. dpyers, you mentioned that an ASP.NET new release is due later this year, any idea how much later? Would it be a waste to start learning ASP.NET now?
Respectfully,
David.



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- http://www.davemackey.net/" rel="nofollow - Dave Mackey - Virtual Home.


Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 11 May 2004 at 11:53am

If visual basic is one of the basic languages you know, then you'll understand the syntax of vb.net although learning the sytax of c#.net isn't that hard, and is probably easier if you have a c, C++, java, or javascript background.

Before making your decision though, browse the forums at http://www.asp.net - www.asp.net and maybe pick up webmatrix, the free .net ide and try both languages.

At http://www.asp.net - www.asp.net , they have starter kits in both vb and C# for some decent applications. One thing I've noticed is that the advanced mods for the starter kits tend to be done in C# rather than VB. An example is the CommunityStarterKit. two groups took it and ran with it to produce enhanced portals - DotNetNuke (which is a combo of the CSK and another demo app called IBuySpy Portal) and GotCommunityNet. Neither of those were done in VB - C# only.

You may also want to consider that Visual Studio/.NET also supports C++.net althought the only "single Language" cheaper versions I've seen are for vb anf c#. Boreland also has a free IDE for C#.

IIRC, the next release of .net (2.0), and Visual Studio (2005) is sometime around September. MS is claimg code reduction of up to 70%. YMMV depending upon your language and I think the 70% applies to vb. Other languages should still see a good size reduction though.

One of the problems with simplifying is that you run into more restrictions on what you can/cannot do. Usually there's some sort of work around that requires more detailed knowledge of the language/enviroment foundation. I don't know if what you learn in .net today provides that background for the future. It seems that a lot of the simplification examples I've seen are due to new classes rather than simplifying existing classes.



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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me.


Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 11 May 2004 at 12:01pm

Don't confuse VBScript with VB.NET - with ASP.NET you'd be using VB.NET and not VBScript.

You won't waste your time with learning C# because MS has already invested a LOT (over 2 billion dollars) in .NET and won't want to alienate programers by making massive changes that are difficult to deal with. They will make the transition either seamless or very, very easy. I can't see them ditching 2 billion dollars of development...



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Posted By: davidshq
Date Posted: 12 May 2004 at 11:02am
Thanks again for all the input...Looks like I will probably go with ASP.NET, even thought CGI is tempting b/c of some of the already existing open source search engines (e.g. Harvest, which is distributed).
Respectfully,
David.

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- http://www.davemackey.net/" rel="nofollow - Dave Mackey - Virtual Home.


Posted By: JohnKn
Date Posted: 13 May 2004 at 12:47pm
I wouldn't discount PHP as an option either. It's very fast, especially when combined with mySQL and able to handle very large databases and user loads. For someone used to VB/ASP it's a bit tough to deal with at first (at least it was for me) but it could be a good choice for your search engine.


Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 15 May 2004 at 10:47am
Realistically, shouldn't a search engine be a stripped down BSD running C or assembly with a front end in ASP.NET or something?

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