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mailprogam choice, experience

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Topic: mailprogam choice, experience
Posted By: henkvdberg
Subject: mailprogam choice, experience
Date Posted: 03 December 2004 at 5:55am
I have already search for a long time to a suitable mail programme and have now the following:

MailList Controller www.arclab.com
WorldCast www.fairlogic.com

1- does someone has experience with these programs?

2- do you have any suggestions for a good and free or cheap mailingprogram?

the programme must meet the following requirements:

-opt-in and opt-out possibility on the website

- send personal mail, dear {name}

- select people,the mail goes each time to other people and for this reason cannot I work with fixed groups or you must 8 groups is able manage

- text and html sending

- a demo

If you know a good program with these functions I gladly would hear it.

My questions
1- does someone has experience with these programs?(MailList controller, Worldcast)

2- do you have any suggestions for a good and free mailingprogram?



Replies:
Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 03 December 2004 at 11:27am
Mozilla Thunderbird

http://www.mozilla.org/products/thunderbird/

Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 03 December 2004 at 12:41pm
He's looking for a mailinglist program, not an email client.
 
Of the two products you mentioned, you'll probably need your own W2K3 server for the arclab one and the fairlogic one is a deskop program but you may be able to import data you're collected on the web to it.
If you want to run from your desktop, you may want to check out postcast.
 
I'm not aware of a web product that meets all of your criteria.  The big sticking point is the ability to select specific individuals instead of groups.


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Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 04 December 2004 at 7:04am
oops, sorry. do a search on sf.net. Lots of good free software.

Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 05 December 2004 at 10:38am
There are no good free bulk mailers/mail list managers. The good ones all cost money. Be prepared to spend well over $100.

Dynamic Mail communicator from Apex Pacific is good, and so is the Lencom FEDE. Both have bugs, but are manageable. Dynamic can't handle views in SQL server, which is a pain. Lencom has a couple bugs too, but is far more powerful than a lot of other ones out there. Both do HTML and Text.

If you find anything for free, let me know. I've never seen a good one that is free. All the cheap or free ones I've seen are complete crap.

Any email program you use should do the following:

  • Use an SMTP server that is properly configured (i.e. not full SMTP) **** THIS IS IMPORTANT
  • Both text and HTML emails (multi-part alternative)
  • Embedded images - i.e. not lazy html
  • Full personalization from a data source, e.g. MSSQL Server, MYSQL, Access, Excel (yuck), etc.
That is the proper way to send email. Anything else will throw up spam flags. If you are looking to spam, then I have no help to offer.

I do bulk emails to existing customers and my ONLY problems come from other people managing the SMTP servers and screwing up on that end. Angry Angry Angry Which makes me more than a bit miffed. Generally, I have zero returned emails when I get my way. [I'm still working on getting a decent SMTP server that is properly configured... grrr... argh...]






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Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 05 December 2004 at 11:15am
Here's a good example of a program that is only useful for spam: http://leesoft.net/postman/  -- using full SMTP is a BAD idea.




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Posted By: Gullanian
Date Posted: 05 December 2004 at 1:05pm
One of the bosses I worked for used one called "Email 32" or something similar to that, definatly had 32 in the name.  That looked ok.

Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 05 December 2004 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Bluefrog Bluefrog wrote:

There are no good free bulk mailers/mail list managers. The good ones all cost money. Be prepared to spend well over $100.

Dynamic Mail communicator from Apex Pacific is good, and so is the Lencom FEDE. Both have bugs, but are manageable. Dynamic can't handle views in SQL server, which is a pain. Lencom has a couple bugs too, but is far more powerful than a lot of other ones out there. Both do HTML and Text.

If you find anything for free, let me know. I've never seen a good one that is free. All the cheap or free ones I've seen are complete crap.

Any email program you use should do the following:

  • Use an SMTP server that is properly configured (i.e. not full SMTP) **** THIS IS IMPORTANT
  • Both text and HTML emails (multi-part alternative)
  • Embedded images - i.e. not lazy html
  • Full personalization from a data source, e.g. MSSQL Server, MYSQL, Access, Excel (yuck), etc.
That is the proper way to send email. Anything else will throw up spam flags. If you are looking to spam, then I have no help to offer.

I do bulk emails to existing customers and my ONLY problems come from other people managing the SMTP servers and screwing up on that end. Angry Angry Angry Which makes me more than a bit miffed. Generally, I have zero returned emails when I get my way. [I'm still working on getting a decent SMTP server that is properly configured... grrr... argh...]


Can you please tell me how you add embedded images?

Posted By: Gullanian
Date Posted: 05 December 2004 at 2:19pm
Maybe he means attachments?

Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 05 December 2004 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Gullanian Gullanian wrote:

Maybe he means attachments?


Nope. Not attachments.

Images that are displayed inline are either pulled off a server (bad) or MIME encoded inside of the email (good). Images should be encoded inside of the message. When you open the email (from an email client, not web mail), you should see images displayed as:

<img src="cid:IHBjhgbIGUy65567GUYGUYYGUt7tFUYVUYY7t7f6fUYGFugu"&g t;

The CID part you can read below the email in an encoded format.

Images that are ripped off of servers (lazy html) look like normal images on a web page. e.g.:

<img src="http://www.somesite.com/theimage.gif">

The size of the email then is very small because the images are not in the email, which is very cheap to send. e.g. A 2KB email vs. a 78KB email. Spammers like cheap...

Normal people would embed the images when sending email. So you can guess which emails get filtered by spam filters.

A lot of spam filters are just cheezy crap that don't work properly. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.  So if you actually want someone to receive your email reliably... You get the idea.




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Posted By: xeerex
Date Posted: 05 December 2004 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by wrote:

The size of the email then is very small because the images are not in the email, which is very cheap to send. e.g. A 2KB email vs. a 78KB email. Spammers like cheap...

Normal people would embed the images when sending email. So you can guess which emails get filtered by spam filters.


That's great. Like I want somebody sending me emails that have 15-20 images of 10-15KB each that are embedded so that my email is slowed down even more. What about dialup users?

There are more reasons to NOT embed images than your suggestion of "being lazy".Wink

I personally have image display turned off in my email client. I don't send email to see images. I use it to convey text or send file attachements, which may include images. As a matter of fact, I don't put images in my newsletter. Straight text only with links to webpage articles if the reader needs to see images.


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Posted By: henkvdberg
Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 4:37am
all my wishes are also  in web Wiz Mailing List, therefore probably I take these.
But I have a few questions about WebWizMailingList
1- If you download it on this website, is it then ready-for-use, can you send newsletters and make a subribe and unsubscribe on your website?
2- What are your experience with WebWizMailingList, is it a good program to send business mails?

Posted By: EvE1
Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 4:48am
Why should you make life difficult. Download and buy(the guy deserves it) for ony approx €40,= the Web Wizz Mailing List. http://www.webwiz.net/asp/sample_scripts/mailing_list_script.asp - http://www.webwiz.net/asp/sample_scripts/mailing_list_ script.asp
 
I did it and I like it a lot. Hardly any bugs(I only found one and it was a very small one). User friendly and complete. And probably it will only get better since the developer keeps creating updates!!!

Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 9:23am
Originally posted by xeerex xeerex wrote:

Originally posted by wrote:

The size of the email then is very small because the images are not in the email, which is very cheap to send. e.g. A 2KB email vs. a 78KB email. Spammers like cheap...

Normal people would embed the images when sending email. So you can guess which emails get filtered by spam filters.


That's great. Like I want somebody sending me emails that have 15-20 images of 10-15KB each that are embedded so that my email is slowed down even more. What about dialup users?

There are more reasons to NOT embed images than your suggestion of "being lazy".Wink

I personally have image display turned off in my email client. I don't send email to see images. I use it to convey text or send file attachements, which may include images. As a matter of fact, I don't put images in my newsletter. Straight text only with links to webpage articles if the reader needs to see images.


There is 1 OVERWHELMING reason to not embed images... It really looks like spam. A well designed email should make use of primarily HTML, then CSS, and a couple images, but not 15~20! That's complete insanity. My standard email template for business mails has 3 images totalling about 10k. 1 is a logo, 1 for branding, and 1 is a background image. The email is beautiful every time I send it. (Our designer is fCensoredg amazing! - He's also the guy responsible for the avatars I use.)

Spam filters work on a "points" system where emails earn (or are penanilzed with) spam points. Once it is over the "spam" threshold, it is flagged as spam. Here are some excellent ways to earn spam points:

  • Use "lazy html" (it is a specific term that is commonly known) to hotlink images in email.
  • Use a dynamic IP address
  • Include flagged words in the subject line, e.g. free, sex, porn, credit, mortgage, etc.
  • Send pure HTML emails with no text alternative
  • Send email from a country or IP range that is blacklisted
  • Have your SMTP server identify itself as a domain other than the "from" address, like "localhost.localdomain" - that's a really good one to get extra spam points.
  • Send your email as a single image with no text or anything at all.
  • Blah blah blah...
The point is that if you care about your email arriving, you should really try to avoid getting spam points.

Non-spam email campaigns should have 1 top priority - to build customer/client relations. This can't be done if your emails don't arrive.

Text emails are good, and I personally prefer text myself, but that isn't most people. The fact is that you do get better responses from HTML emails. People like flashy stuff/crap - how else can you explain the success of game shows, reality TV, infotainment like Access Hollywood, or hyponews like the American version of CNN (the international version actually conveys information)?  Flash and glitz are what people want, not intelligence, reflection, or valuable information. Depressing, isn't it?




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Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 9:37am
Originally posted by henkvdberg henkvdberg wrote:

all my wishes are also  in web Wiz Mailing List, therefore probably I take these.
But I have a few questions about WebWizMailingList
1- If you download it on this website, is it then ready-for-use, can you send newsletters and make a subribe and unsubscribe on your website?
2- What are your experience with WebWizMailingList, is it a good program to send business mails?


For 1 - yes.

For 2 - Depends on your business. The question isn't really about the WebWizMailingList, but more about the components you use. CDONTS and CDOSYS are very weak. You are better off using the ASPemail from Persits. It is a very good component and is reliable - which is everything for business. The free version of Jmail is weak, but their full version is much much better. Since WebWizMailingList is ASP, you can modify it easily to suit any custom requirement you may have. Bruce's code is exceptionally easy to follow and modify. His code reads like a complete tutorial on ASP. Numerous people have learned a lot from him.

If you are running a mailing list from a web site, then it is ideal.




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Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 9:44am
Good post BF.
 
This link shows some of the point values assigned for determining if an email is spam by SpamAssassin http://spamassassin.apache.org/tests_3_0_x.html - http://spamassassin.apache.org/tests_3_0_x.html
 
Some hosts have an option in their spam blocking software to have the results of the spam scam posted into the headers of the email. If your host has that option, it's a pretty informative exercise to check out the headers in what's flagged as spam/not spam.


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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me.

Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 10:12am
Originally posted by henkvdberg henkvdberg wrote:

all my wishes are also  in web Wiz Mailing List, therefore probably I take these.
But I have a few questions about WebWizMailingList
1- If you download it on this website, is it then ready-for-use, can you send newsletters and make a subribe and unsubscribe on your website?
2- What are your experience with WebWizMailingList, is it a good program to send business mails?
 
  1. 1. - Yes. Note that the free version is limited to 50 emails.
  2. 2. As BlueFrog noted, it depends upon your site. I'm in the process of having a user evaluate the new version for possible implementation early next year and so far they're thrilled. It's an excellent Newsletter Management System from both the technical and the usability view.
 
Two possible concerns with it from my initial look:
  1. You have the ability to allow the user to opt for either HTML or Text email. Doesn't allow multi-part mime for sendng both types within the same email.
  2. No mail queuing. I'll probably add options for ASPQmail or the Queing option for ASPEmail to accommodate large lists. Adding the options should be pretty simple. Don't know yet how reliable the counters will be after that though as it probably will count mail sent to the que which is different than mail sent from the que.


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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me.

Posted By: xeerex
Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 11:07am
Originally posted by bf bf wrote:

The fact is that you do get better responses from HTML emails. People like flashy stuff/crap - how else can you explain the success of game shows, reality TV, infotainment like Access Hollywood, or hyponews like the American version of CNN (the international version actually conveys information)?


Game shows? Lets talk about spam itself. Take away the silly ~1% of people buying from the glitz and stupid formatting, and you take away the spammers. Until that percentage stops responding spam will not decline. As a matter of fact most people would be quite surprised how many well-known companies actually covertly support spam...

As far as CNN, check their ratings against Fox lately. I don't like Ted Turner anyway.Wink

As a side note, BlueFrog don't you own (or are associated with) ALFTP and ALZIP? I thought I recognized the avatar. Great software you have. I try to recommend it to people.Clap


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Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 06 December 2004 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by xeerex xeerex wrote:

Originally posted by bf bf wrote:

The fact is that you do get better responses from HTML emails. People like flashy stuff/crap - how else can you explain the success of game shows, reality TV, infotainment like Access Hollywood, or hyponews like the American version of CNN (the international version actually conveys information)?


Game shows? Lets talk about spam itself. Take away the silly ~1% of people buying from the glitz and stupid formatting, and you take away the spammers. Until that percentage stops responding spam will not decline. As a matter of fact most people would be quite surprised how many well-known companies actually covertly support spam...

As far as CNN, check their ratings against Fox lately. I don't like Ted Turner anyway.Wink

As a side note, BlueFrog don't you own (or are associated with) ALFTP and ALZIP? I thought I recognized the avatar. Great software you have. I try to recommend it to people.Clap


I get to view both the US and International versions of CNN, and they are just so totally different... We don't get news Fox much... Can't compare.

I'm the International Marketing Manager for ESTsoft, the maker of ALZip. JaeBeom is the designer, and the Eggheads he creates are just way too cute. Coming out this week are a couple Christmas desktop wallpapers. My favorite is the baby Santa Claus. The design team is really busy at the moment, so there are only 2 this Christmas. ALSee will be coming out soon as well. Keep your eyes peeled for that. Clap

I'm glad you like the software. Big smile We aim to please.

My site is http://renegademinds.com. You can clearly see how badly I suck at design there. But GDT v2.1 is almost ready Big smile YEAH~! I've been working on it for a while now, and it is almost ready. So I'm almost ready to email everybody on my email list Wink





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Posted By: xeerex
Date Posted: 07 December 2004 at 1:12am
Originally posted by bluefrog bluefrog wrote:

You can clearly see how badly I suck at design there.


Hey, anyone that is involved with some good software, has cool egghead avatars, AND promotes FireFox is a friend of mine.LOL


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Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 07 December 2004 at 9:02am
Check out the installer for Email Avenger - It may look a bit familiar Smile

Just keep in mind that it uses Jmail and if you use a specific Jmail version, don't actually install it. It's meant for end users, and not developers. There is a source code version for developers.




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Posted By: henkvdberg
Date Posted: 07 December 2004 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Bluefrog Bluefrog wrote:



For 2 - Depends on your business. The question isn't really about the WebWizMailingList, but more about the components you use. CDONTS and CDOSYS are very weak. You are better off using the ASPemail from Persits. It is a very good component and is reliable - which is everything for business. The free version of Jmail is weak, but their full version is much much better. Since WebWizMailingList is ASP, you can modify it easily to suit any custom requirement you may have. Bruce's code is exceptionally easy to follow and modify. His code reads like a complete tutorial on ASP. Numerous people have learned a lot from him.

If you are running a mailing list from a web site, then it is ideal.
 
Thanks for the answer.
 
Normal i send about 100-150 e-mails a month, do I need a other program for sending?
 
if the answer is yes, i prever a free program, does anybody have suggestions?

Posted By: quito86
Date Posted: 10 December 2004 at 6:16am

I also have a question about this.

How much e-mails is the maximum to send with SMTP?
50 a day?
150 a day?

Posted By: Mart
Date Posted: 10 December 2004 at 11:20am
That depends on what how your host has configured your server

Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 11 December 2004 at 1:44am
It also depends on your server. Mercury32 documentation/FAQs say that it can handle about 8,000 per hour on simple PC hardware. It also depends on the size of the email. Larger ones take longer. The receiving email servers also matter - are they slow?

Unless you are sending out tens or hundreds of thousands of emails, you probably don't need to worry. If you are using your web hosting account to send emails, then you may need to worry if you are sending any more than a few hundred or a couple thousand emails.

50 or 100 emails a day is nothing. Don't worry about it.



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