why pay M$
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Printed Date: 28 March 2026 at 9:22am
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Topic: why pay M$
Posted By: the boss
Subject: why pay M$
Date Posted: 28 January 2006 at 2:49pm
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ok so i had been trying to setup linux+squid proxy for my friend internet cafe. So i had been working with a few distro of linux and squid and having first hand experience of why open source sucks...
talk about user unfriendly OS.. even to operate something like Knoppix.. u got to know sh*t loads of thing.. many basic tasks are not as easy as windows.. now we know why MS rules the consumer OS!! ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss"> 
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Replies:
Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 28 January 2006 at 3:36pm
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Linux and Squid are not difficult to setup. If you had searched you probably could have downloaded a GUI like something you would use in Windows. What Linux Distributions did you try? |
Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 29 January 2006 at 12:00am
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Linux is terse. The evidence is in just about all Linux documentation where you read, "At the shell prompt..."
------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |
Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 29 January 2006 at 8:25am
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The thing about Linux is the way it is made. Apple and Microsoft make everything that comes with an operating system. In Linux X comes from x.org and the office suite comes from open office etc. Some of the leading distros have GUI configs now (SuSe has Yast and Mandrake has drake, while fedora is getting there with its system-config) |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 29 January 2006 at 4:55pm
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Linux looks like a good intended but poorly engineered russian product..only its creators know the operation
this is from wikipedia
Development effortshttp://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/redhat71-v1/redhat71sloc.html - More Than a Gigabuck: Estimating GNU/Linux's Size , a study of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Linux - Red Hat Linux 7.1, found that this particular distribution contained 30 million http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code - source lines of code (SLOC). The Linux kernel contained 2.4 million lines of code, or 8% of the total. Using the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COCOMO - Constructive Cost Model (COCOMO), the study estimated that this distribution required about eight thousand person-years of development time. Had all this software been developed by conventional http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_software - proprietary means, it would have cost 1.08 billion dollars (year 2000 dollars) to develop in the United States. Slightly over half of the code in that distribution was licensed under the GPL. In a later study, Counting potatoes: the size of Debian 2.2, the same analysis was performed for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian - Debian GNU/Linux version 2.2. This distribution contained over fifty-five million source lines of code, and the study estimated that it would have cost 1.9 billion dollars (year 2000 dollars) to develop by conventional proprietary means. The source code for the Linux kernel used to be maintained using the software application called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BitKeeper - BitKeeper but, partly because a license dispute, it is now maintained via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_%28software%29 - Git , the new directory content manager created by Linus Torvalds himself. ---------------------------------------------------------------Windows XP has 40Million lines of code and is still much better than any linsuxs ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 30 January 2006 at 5:04pm
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Well that is only if you believe the article. Also 2.4 kernel is seriously outdated If you don't like Linux why not look into FreeBSD. FreeBSD it really only for advanced users as it is almost all command line however it is extremely stable. Also Solaris is free now! |
Posted By: michael
Date Posted: 30 January 2006 at 5:38pm
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But seriously, unless you setup a system once using command line for some processing why would you want to do that. An everyday system should have a simple gui and should not need to be operated using command line. ------------- http://baumannphoto.com" rel="nofollow - Blog | http://mpgtracker.com" rel="nofollow - MPG Tracker |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 02 February 2006 at 8:27pm
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well im trying to setup squid for caching.. and every time.. something doesnt work.. and finally when it works.. after paying sh*t load of $$$ to a linux pro and a poweredge server.. just for the sake of finding out wether it is all that worthed..its slow and dissapointing.. heck isa 2004 running off a pentium 4 512MB RAM.. gave better performance.. soo much for linux...
i guess.. unless you are not a pro knowing linux shell really hardcore inside out.. u are not goin to be comfortable with it.. ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 02 February 2006 at 9:46pm
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Linux is really only for Unix trained sysadmins. When configured well it works so much better than windows but unfortunately most people can't configure it well  .The GUI tools are improving but as they are all developed by seperate linux distributions the development is slowed. The general GUI for normal programs has improved a lot. The screenshots for KDE4 (one available GUI) has been around no where near as long as Windows but has almost as good desktop graphics as Vista. |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 03 February 2006 at 2:33am
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It's usually considered good practive to have only what is absolutely needed on a web or proxy server to eliminate as many potential security risks as possible. That includes not running a gui client or server on the machine as they are not essential to the primary function. There's method to the command line madness. ------------- 
Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 03 February 2006 at 1:04pm
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I am a huge fan of Microsoft.. (I see you all laughing and sniggering)... however lets face it... Microsoft has made the computer industry what it is today, with virtually every desktop pc in every office running at least some version of Windows and in most cases every server running at least some version of Windows Server OS. I know loads of people complain about their products but they have some awesome stuff (Like SQL Server, Virtual PC etc). I know someone will reply and say "..... well they did not make them from the beginning and someone else had the idea first....etc" but MS has refined them and made them what they are today. If Linux is as good as people make it out to be then ask yourselves why after +- 15years (1990) Linux is still not the dominant OS.... There have been many in the past like Novell, OS2 etc but none have survived like Microsoft.. LONG LIVE BILL GATES !!!! :-) ------------- If you dont want my peaches, dont shake my tree |
Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 03 February 2006 at 5:26pm
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I would be a bigger fan of Microsoft is there software wasn't so ridiculously overpriced. The reason why Linux isn't the leading OS is because: 1) There are to many Linux distributions. If they all colaborated things would be so much better. 2) Commercial apps only run on Windows. Developers and companys however are now starting to develop linux versions of their software  3) Hardware companys are not producing drivers for linux / driver specifications / open source drivers which does not help |
Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 03 February 2006 at 5:33pm
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Yes I do think that the MS products are very over priced.. They say "... its becuase of piracy.. so the "Honest" people have to pay higher prices for the "dishonest " pirates. I still think even if they did collaborate Linux.. It would still have a long way to go to reach the level of things like Active Directory etc. Dont get me wrong, I am great fan of Open Source and will use some bits of it where I can (like Firefox apposed to IE) and MySQL, OpenOffice etc. But the defacto standard for everything is Microsoft. ------------- If you dont want my peaches, dont shake my tree |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 03 February 2006 at 9:03pm
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I gotta agree with Tegwin there, 80+% of people using computers today wouldn't be doing so without MS. - Applies to Unix/Linus users as well. I remember 10 or 12 years of X-windows wars that never got close to being resolved until MS started gobbling up the market. All those Linux gui's owe their existence to MS, and it's the GUI's that made linux distributable. Hard to call their software overpriced when a few triillion people have found the shekels to purchase it. High priced, yes. Over priced - ? -------------
Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: Phat
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 2:59am
I guess the question is over priced compared to what? Linux which is free? But no support and hard to use... I am a MS fan as well. I have never even seen a linux box running. ------------- http://buildit.sitesell.com/sitebuildithome.html - Get a website that sells |
dpyers wrote:Posted By: michael
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 3:44am
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There is not really much to see, just a blinking cursor .
As far as prices go, well sure it is a lot of money to pay $100-250 or so for an operating system (standard) but then again, you usually use if for a few years. ------------- http://baumannphoto.com" rel="nofollow - Blog | http://mpgtracker.com" rel="nofollow - MPG Tracker |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 7:26am
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consider this also.. many gui distro of linux are 4-8 CD.. what a pita when MS windows ships in one CD...
secondly, throught out my exposure to windows, i have learnt that if locked down properly, no amount of virus will make way into your system. Unfortunately, for the sake of userfriendliness, lots of windows stuff has been left open...never in my life.. a worm like sobig or blaster had affected my computer..
on the flip side, configuring security really needs a lot of skill and know how. This is harder compared to buying the usual linux BS of "it is secure because it has less viruses"... it only has less viruses because virus seekers are looking for most damage in least time. Making windows with all those holes and widespread use, a perfect target..
If it was not for microsoft, we would still be stuck with Oracle, PLSQL or something like that.
Regarding the pricing of microsoft software, it has less to do with piracy and more to do with taking advantage of dominant position. I mean comeon, if piracy was really affecting microsoft, then we would be hearing about cash flow problems and bill gates wont be the richest person. ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 8:59am
I agree with the boss here. I think that with enough "know how" windows can be made very secured. I too have never been infected by a Virus on my windows system because I have the right security in place. I have also secured many of my clients' windows machines and they too have never been infected with a virus. ------------- If you dont want my peaches, dont shake my tree |
Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 11:37am
Linux has Fedora Directory Server which allows central login although it does not allow group policy etc. The beta of Samba 4 (a program on Linux to allow viewing Windows file shares) does have full compatibility with AD 2000. If you use Samba and Linux as you file server then you don't need any CALs. |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 4:15pm
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I think there's a place in the world for both types of systems. But if you do a full install of either, you've got out-of-the-box security issues. Both types need to be locked down. Unix has always been easier to do partial installs than windows. You can install just what you need with fewer dependencies upon other OS components that could provide attack vectors. Windows has always been so interwoven that installing just the sevices you need to perform one specific function (e.g. web server) has been impossible in the past. On the bright side though, MS finally wised up about that and has started relesing functional configurations of their server OS's - e.g. just the stuff to run iis, or just the stuff to run MS SQL. Their client platforms like XP are still a hodge-podge of services in an attempt to be all things to all people (ever try to get ris of MS Messenger?). The security approaches to Windows client machines have been back-assward... instead of being able to reduce exposure by being able to remove services you don't need or don't want, the only viable security solutions are to wrap it around the OS rather than completely within it. So you see everyone running firewall software, AV software, Spyware Software, etc. around the OS - kind of like trying to wrap a size 32 belt around a size 40 belly - some stuff just spills over. Better to loose weight. -------------
Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: Mart
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 5:21pm
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I had to use linux recently as I had to work on a project that was being developed on a linux platform, so I installed ubuntu, 2 weeks later I decided to completely remove windows from my main desktop, I was really impressed. My UI with KDE + X Composite manager even tops vista, I've got drop shadows, translucency, fading and it doesn't even use much CPU. ( http://www.opensourceproject.net/snapshot1.jpg - http://www.opensourceproject.net/snapshot1.jpg ) Ubuntu is just 1 CD, and if you go onto their site you can ask to be mailed a CD for free - you don't even have to pay postage, it also installs everything you need, open office, FF, gAIM etc. |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 7:10pm
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I've been playing with Ubuntu and like it. Not sure yet if I'll replace a bsd system with it as I want to get more familiar with it before I "fix" something that works - lol. If the rumors about google picking it up as Goobunto and distributing it as a desktop alternative to MS turn out to be true, we could be moving into a different computing universe. -------------
Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 10:50pm
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Google has denied that but then I reckon they are making an OS even if it is just for in-house use. Just thing it could come with all the Google tools built in etc etc |
Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 04 February 2006 at 10:55pm
I remember you asking me about Linux a while ago but you never said you started using it completely. I now use PHP + lighttpd (alternative to apache) for my web development so I have less dependency on Windows and IIS. I am honured to be in the screenshot but neither GAIM or Kopete shows my PSM allow you to view my MSN space. This is mainly because they are using the older MSN protocol |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 05 February 2006 at 1:19am
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The single unbutu install cd is more of a starter system than a full featured distro. You download other packages from the web to complete they system. Not that big of a deal though as there's some good references to "package groups" floating around if you want to set up the system for something specific. Most of the Debian stuff will work with them as well. Hate to think about having to get back into python though. My books on it are 5 or 6 years old, which is about the last time I did anything substantial in it. Ruby on Rails is my spring project. How do you like lighttpd? Any advantage to lighty over apache other than speed? -------------
Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 05 February 2006 at 9:26am
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i got a whole box ubuntu cd's to give away.. anyone wants this "linux for human beings" ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 05 February 2006 at 9:35am
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We get Cd's off the cover of magazines in the UK. I saw the last edition of Linux Magazine had a copy of Ubuntu 5.10 on DVD .. Not being a linux person. I am not sure if this is the latest !!! ------------- If you dont want my peaches, dont shake my tree |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 05 February 2006 at 12:03pm
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well 5.10 is what i have got. i guess its the latest.. ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 05 February 2006 at 3:24pm
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5.10 is the latest. 6.4 is supposed to be out in April
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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 05 February 2006 at 4:00pm
The single ubuntu CD has all the offically supported software on. You can enable the universe repository which has all the unoffically supported stuff. Lots of the debian stuff does not work on Ubuntu because it has changed a lot know compared to debian. The was a big debate the other day about whether Ubuntu should exist or just help debian instead. Python really does not seem to have caught on for web development. My current host has RoR support on there servers. The only problem is that certain parts of RoR need a server reboot meaning you will have to wait unless you have a dedicated server. I used to be an apache fanboy. However now I have tried lighttpd it runs faster even when I am just using it on localhost. The benchmarks on the website show that it is faster than Apache 1.3 and 2. It has full support for PHP (although you should run it in fastcgi mode and not CGI). The only unfortunate thing about lighttpd is that it uses a different URL rewrite language
I did a custom order on my Ubuntu CDs as I didn't want 10 cds as if I gave them away I would have to install them for my tech-illiterate friends as well
It is although the Linux magazine seems to put thinks on DVD after they have been out for a while.
Indeed unless you use the development repository which isn't really recommended.
6.40 is meant to be coming out on the 6 / 4. Ubuntu naming and versioning is really messed up |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 06 February 2006 at 7:43pm
well.. didnt microsoft named their software windows 2003 and office 2003  ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 06 February 2006 at 9:00pm
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Well yes but that is slightly different. It makes the software look more stable when actually they are using ordinary version numbers as a release date. For some reason the first version of Ubuntu released was 4.10. Versions 1-4 weren't even made inhouse, they don't actually exist. |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 06 February 2006 at 10:32pm
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Their vesioning is year-2000.month, so 4.10 was released in October 2004.
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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: Gullanian
Date Posted: 07 February 2006 at 12:17am
| Windows? Office? Maybe it will be Stapler or Paper Shredder next |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 07 February 2006 at 5:17pm
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well the paper shredder in my office says version 2 on its botton tag, along with the barcode ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: ub3rl337ch3ch
Date Posted: 07 February 2006 at 11:47pm
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the program i'm writing at the moment is asking to be opened with Shredder 2.0 |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 08 February 2006 at 12:09am
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A lot of my code gets routed there.
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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: ub3rl337ch3ch
Date Posted: 08 February 2006 at 12:13am
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well i wish the client that decided they wanted such a complex RAD would run carcrash102.exe...
ok, thats not quite true, cos he's a nice guy... just... the RAD... GAH!
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Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 08 February 2006 at 10:45am
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well i have to implement a Mini-ISP solution for about 500-600 clients.. and i requested a month of time for R&D but i got a week only!! ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: huwnet
Date Posted: 08 February 2006 at 8:53pm
What does this need (proxy, mail, web ???)? Setting this up with linux should be fairly trivial |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 09 February 2006 at 1:15am
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I did a stint as a cio for an isp a few years back. Found this book to be very valuable... ISP Survival Guide: Strategies for Running a Competitive ISP Didn't have a lot of depth but was very broad instead. Brought a lot of things to my attention so I could handle them before they became problems. -------------
Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 11 February 2006 at 8:40am
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ohh well we are not running an ISP here.. we have just got a sub contract to implement ADSL or wirless solution for a residential compound, about 600 host nodes.. ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: ub3rl337ch3ch
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 12:13am
ok, you win for the sucky job... 
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Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 4:16pm
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ha.. i just drew a sh*tty diagram in visio and stick it on the management face.. they want me to handle the job but im more of a software person.. not practially in networking hardware.. and all our staff is already busy.. so time to outsource..
btw.. i read some news abt chinese outsourcing their automotive manufacturing to the russians... ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: ub3rl337ch3ch
Date Posted: 13 February 2006 at 8:33pm
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nyet? your kidding! |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 7:44pm
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whats nyet??? ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: ub3rl337ch3ch
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 9:34pm
| russian for no... except converted from cyrillic... |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 14 February 2006 at 10:07pm
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ohh ok so what does every one think of recent show down about american auto manufacturers (ford & GM) , their ever increasing finiancial and production facility loses, protest form unions and trying to use patriotism to sell cars..
------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 15 February 2006 at 12:34am
Just business as usual. No different than any other year. -------------
Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 15 February 2006 at 8:29am
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ha ha.. ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: Shimpi06
Date Posted: 05 March 2006 at 5:26am
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Well, speaking as a realistic American not blinded by patriotic emotional hysteria...
Everyone of sound mind on this side of the Atlantic knows GM and Ford both s_ck. Quality car manufacturing standards are established by the Japanese and German manufacturers.
Now the American government is trying to sell away a part of their infrastructure (like control of American ports to Dubai) to make money because those sodding idiots know nothing about proper and efficient economics.
Wait for a decade...we Americans will all be speaking Spanish and dancing the bl--dy salsa...not that we don't deserve it.
Anyway, where was I? Oh yes...
Like everything else in life, you get what you pay for. Here are a few examples:
*If you don't want to pay for a web host, use a free web host and get inundated with pop-ups.
*If you don't want to pay a lot for a quality car, buy American and get inundated with mechanical and electrical problems.
*And for this thread, if you don't want to pay a lot for a server operating system, download a free linux distribution and get inundated with having to update service patches for a multitude of modules from php.net, apache.org, samba.org and (insert your linux distribution here).com.
Free, is not always better. Cheaper is not always better. Sometimes it amazes me the number of hurdles people will jump, the number of issues people are willing to endure, just to save money.
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Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 05 March 2006 at 7:34am
im getting a ford crown vic.. not that i am a fan of that incredibly slow hunk of metal but i have no choice.. i will try to finish off the installments asap and get a mercedes or something..yay ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 05 March 2006 at 2:13pm
This is so true. Working for my self I see this all the time even with big business customers. If they can save a few pennies on something they will even if the quality is not so good. You pay your money and get your goods, there is no one else to blame but themselves.. ------------- If you dont want my peaches, dont shake my tree |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 05 March 2006 at 4:31pm
A lot of State Highway Patrols in the US use a police interceptor version of the Crown Vic. They seem to catch anything they chase.  -------------
Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: Shimpi06
Date Posted: 05 March 2006 at 6:08pm
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Yup, but I think they add a whole bunch of goodies to the engine to increase its performance. A lot of taxi companies buy retired police vehicles exactly because of that reason.
Tegwin, going back to the topic, I have seen this a lot too. In my opinion, if they prioritize the cost of the operating system and end up paying more for the accumulated costs of man hours to keep the thing running, they deserve what they get.
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Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 06 March 2006 at 9:53am
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ok i will drop in a ford 300HP engine into it..bcuz it will be a direct bolt on to trans.. then upgrade the suspension and stuff.. well is it worth to spend all that money on a car still riding 70's plattform.. NO.. so i will buy a Merc.. when i will have money..meantime stick to crown vic and be a loser watching corolla's pull by you on redlight making fun of ur V8 even the police interceptor suck...may be in the USA its ok bcuz they dont drive that fast in US..but i remember they had Police version of crown vic here for highway patrol and the brats would intentionally challenge the highway cops ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: michael
Date Posted: 06 March 2006 at 2:48pm
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doesen't really matter what type of car the police drives. most police and sheriff in my area drive the Impala, slow as ass but I would not dream running from them if I did something wrong, they got more then one car... ------------- http://baumannphoto.com" rel="nofollow - Blog | http://mpgtracker.com" rel="nofollow - MPG Tracker |
Posted By: Gullanian
Date Posted: 06 March 2006 at 3:04pm
| Every business I worked for seemed quite friterous with cash and not penny saving. |
Posted By: mack
Date Posted: 09 March 2006 at 2:55am
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My FAVORITE article: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm - http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 11 March 2006 at 4:24pm
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This is 21st century, the milleneium of outsourcing by americans..every country on planet should have a fair share from the pie of american economic strength and the dollar in general...starting with a sea port which is the first step.. others will follow.. in - it was too much to contract the sea ports management to american companies therefore they gave it to a dubai company which in turn outsources the work in their own country to indians contractors or hire cheap indian labour - it was too expensive to maintain american milltary so they outsource the troops to chinese.. they have a lot of population so supply is never a demand.. and when supply is higher than demand.. prices drop..so :P - The NASA can be outsourced to russians as a whole since they have always dominated in this field - the electronics and their manufacturing sector can be outsourced to taiwan..well they already rule this market somehow - the ministry of labor to Mexico - Department of finance to switzerland..not cheap outsourcing but still more punch per buck - Department of communication to the Brits..dont know why..may be the the friendship of dubias form both side helped here - Departments of Homeland security is wholly contracted to Bush family which in turns subcontracts it to the Indians -FDA can be broken down and publically traded on the stock exchange.. Mc Donald will be highly intrested -FTC can be sold to WalMart
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Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 11 March 2006 at 9:00pm
50% of the countries and organizations you named are just fronts for Halliburton. 
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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 18 March 2006 at 10:36am
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ok lets annex haliburton then! ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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