Ingrates
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Category: General Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: General discussion and chat on any topic.
URL: https://forums.webwiz.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=18696
Printed Date: 30 March 2026 at 2:27pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.08 - https://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ingrates
Posted By: Bluefrog
Subject: Ingrates
Date Posted: 12 March 2006 at 10:10pm
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Truth be told, most people are selfish ingrates. It's absolutely amazing how many people EXPECT a free lunch. Real gratitude for a product of the quality of WWF isn't a pat on the back and a "thanks" - it's showing it by opening up your wallet. There's a real problem with free software. The problem is that free software often ruins good software by driving good software out of the market because it can't compete. Quality no longer matters quite often. When something like WWF is given away for free with ads to incentivize people to pay for it, it helps alleviate that problem. When software developers get paid, they can put more time into the product. When they don't get paid, they drop the product. If people actually donated for software that they use an appreciate, this wouldn't be such a problem. Anyone who has used a large variety of software can tell you that in general, commercial software (paid for software) is a safer bet than free software and will cost less in the long run. That's entirely due to the developer having a vested interest in the software they produce. WWF is a freakish anomaly in that it has been free as it is. Along the same lines Apache and PHP are freaks. They are free, but they work and are viable tools in a commercial / production setting. I certainly can't fault Bruce for introducing ads & a larger banner. If that's what it takes to get more people to donate / pay for a license, then that's what's needed. Just FYI - as far as I can tell, donations for free software run around the 1 in 3,000 mark. That's FAR below what it takes to make a product commercially viable. Some of the large OSS or FOSS projects get funding from large corporations to keep them running. e.g. Sun, Novell, etc. Without their support, some of those projects wouldn't be viable as the are right now. At the end of the day, somebody always pays for the software. Expecting the developer to shoulder the entire burden isn't reasonable. Given what WWF is, the small price Bruce asks is cheap. My only request/complaint would be - ASP.NET! I'd love to see that. Especially with a DNN module!  I'd pay again for another license for that in a heartbeat!------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |
Replies:
Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 12 March 2006 at 10:11pm
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Ooops... Clicked the wrong button.. That was supposed to be a reply to another topic... Oh well... ------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 13 March 2006 at 8:48am
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just make two version.. a lite one for free.. and a full featured one with pay or dont give away the .net version for free.. .net is the latest in MS based web developed so far so giving it away for free doesnt make much sense.. considering the learning curve as well.. where as ASP is obselete now..
well yes free software drives out paid one from the market but well its has be to good and worthy as well... otherwise we would all be using linux right now.. ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss"> 
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Posted By: Scotty32
Date Posted: 13 March 2006 at 10:44am
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umm i slightly disagree since borg has been offering this for free with just the link at the bottom ive been able to use it on non-profit sites for a while now and being non-profit sites, i dont really wanna go paying for licences and that if i used WWF commerically i would buy the licence but now the google ads are in, i feel that pritty much ruins my non-profit sites meaning am going to be forced to go buy the licence key when V8 comes out to me, i dont think theres much of a choice in wether having free or paying the licence, the google ads pritty much force the anwer to be pay for licence i dont feel am that much of a selfish ingrate, since it was originally free.. without google ads... and am running a non-profit site but i have seen people on the site (especially in the V8 suggestions threads) that are more what your talking about seem to EXPECT features, and EXPECT what they want, but oviously want to keep the price i personally agree with boss, i think 2 versions would be alot better though ive seen borg elsewhere he hasnt got time to maintain 2 versions though couldnt he make it so features get enabled once you enter the licence key? ------------- S2H.co.uk - http://www.s2h.co.uk/wwf/" rel="nofollow - WebWiz Mods and Skins For support on my mods + skins, please use http://www.s2h.co.uk/forum/" rel="nofollow - my forum . |
Posted By: michael
Date Posted: 13 March 2006 at 2:30pm
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I am sure Bruce has looked at a lot of different approaches to rake some money in for his work here. Now I agree that Google Ads are somewhat intrusive on some sites, what other choice does he have. He could force popups what that would even annoy more.
Given the nature of ASP, feature enabling a product though payment is sort of difficult as people can easily take that out by altering the code. Easier in .net, he would not have to relase source code unless you pay. ------------- http://baumannphoto.com" rel="nofollow - Blog | http://mpgtracker.com" rel="nofollow - MPG Tracker |
Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 13 March 2006 at 3:06pm
+100 for a .NET version! Originally I figured out the unlock key for WWF before I bought a license. Just for fun of course though. I do have some morals  ~!------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |
michael wrote:Posted By: MadDog
Date Posted: 13 March 2006 at 9:00pm
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I say screw the ads, as it creates a ugly forum, and charge for the forum already! Even if it was $10 a copy it sure would weed out 99% of the 6 year olds that dont listen, post in the wrong forum, ask questions that have been answered 1000x before, people that only want free stuff and dont care about donating, and it would make -boRg- quit his day job and finish v20 of WebWizForums already  ------------- http://www.iportalx.net" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Susan0722
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 3:29pm
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It's hard to tell from the verbose post of the OP if he wants people to pay or if he is ticked that he is now going have to pay to get rid of the ads.
Either way, I appreciate the fact that this was free. I used it for a few days, found it was simple, easy and functioning well. Then I paid for it!
I like the idea of trial before you buy idea. Unfortuantely it is set up on an "honor system" unlike some free software that expires after a certain amount of time, and unfortunately too, some people are not so honorable.
I have said all along...... points to siggy. ------------- Pay for your copy of WebWIZ, it's worth it and you know it! |
Posted By: VBScript
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 4:52pm
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This complaining is getting stupid. Just think about it for a minute. Web Wiz Forums - TO REMOVE ADDS Non-Commercial/Commercial: £29.99 Developer: £299.99 FREE UPGRADES INCLUDED vBulletin - FOR THE SOFTWARE Commercial/Non-Commercial: £91 Upgrades for only a year Invision Power Board - FOR THE SOFTWARE Commercial/Non-Commercial: £105 Support for 1 year Web Wiz Forums is easily the best forum solution. For starters with anything other than Web Wiz Forums you have to pay for the SOFTWARE!!!! With web wiz forums you are paying to remove google ads that keep the project going and Links to WWG. ------------- http://www.james-r.co.uk" rel="no follow - James http://www.gotrillian.com/?4498-20" rel="no follow - Trillian - M |
Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 14 March 2006 at 10:07pm
I'm not ticked at all about paying. It's cheaper to pay for a good product than waste time with something that's free & "kind of" works. For $50, if I end up wasting even 1 hour, then I'm losing money. What ticks me is some people's attitudes about wanting everything for free. There are too many people that get something for free, and then the only thing they can do about it is bitch and complain. F*** them. If they don't like it, they can go out and spend the months and years it takes to make their own. There's a big difference between constructive criticism about product functionality and complaining about the price of something that you can get for free. e.g. "I don't like how X works. Could it be done like Y?" Is a legitimately constructive type of comment. Whereas, "I don't like the fact that you're trying to get money & put food on the table," is neither constructive nor reasonable. That ticks me off. It's nice when commercial users can pay enough to keep a product free for non-profit users, but that doesn't always happen. Anyways, that's enough for my mini-rant on freeloaders that complain about pricing. ------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |
Posted By: the boss
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 12:18pm
perhaps we should all become communits, code linux and speak cyrillic..then we will have everything for free..offically and legally  ------------- http://www.web2messenger.com/theboss">
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Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 12:43pm
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This is to all the free loaders out there... AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE !!!!! Either pay Borg for his time and efforts , or P*** off and go get another forum that you would pay loads of money for. But dont come here and complain about this one.... |
Posted By: Scotty32
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 12:48pm
am guessing this is directed at me? since i got a email notification of a post to me, which has disappeared btw: for your "other" post - i think you TOTALLY misunderstood what i was acctually saying personally i think that newbie members who have ONLY just started using it cant complain, but i think long standing members who have used this for long time have the right to DISCUSS it, and debate it end of the day (as everyones saying) its up to borg, and borg along (PS: i DID make my own forum for one of my sites, due to the fact i had an excisting userbase and would of been harder to intergrate WWF into it )------------- S2H.co.uk - http://www.s2h.co.uk/wwf/" rel="nofollow - WebWiz Mods and Skins For support on my mods + skins, please use http://www.s2h.co.uk/forum/" rel="nofollow - my forum . |
Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 1:00pm
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It was directed at all the people who are complaining out the fact that the forum is using ads.. Which is why I changed the posting. I have the same in my own business, I run a computer consultancy firm in Hampshire UK , and I get the same thing all the time from people who "want everything for free" and when they do get it for free they complain about it.. Of course people have a right to discuss and debate it, but what is happening here is not debating or discussing, its plain old complaining. At the end of the day (to quote your phrase  ) Borg has a right to do whatever he sees fit with the software. All I am saying is that if that displeases some people then they should take alternative measures ... |
Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 1:08pm
At least it's nice to see so many people all nice and warmed up to commercial software.
And it's good to hear some ranting on the commercial side of software.
Does my heart good to see that the world isn't full of commie b@$+@Rdz!
 Usually all the ranting is done by the FOSS crowd. Oh, and the Mac zealots too. They love to rant more than anyone. Hell... They even have conferences to rant. Well, the FOSS crowd does too... Not that I'm against FOSS - it sure has a place. Just not as the mainstay. If it did, nobody would write anything and we'd never get anything new or any innovation. There is some really killer quality stuff out there. e.g. Secret Rabbit Code (libsamplerate). It's free for non-commercial use (i.e. GPL) but you need to pay for it for commercial use. It's also higher quality than a lot of commercial software out there. BTW - Secret Rabbit Code, or SRC, stands for Sample Rate Convertor. Very cute  ------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |
Posted By: Scotty32
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 1:32pm
am not complaining saying it should be free am just saying i see it as pritty useless with google ads, i feel it degrades my site, if i wanted ads all over it ad would paste ads all over it, but i dont the link back am fine with, and id be fine with the google ads IF it was done nicely, but theres like 3 on a page, header, first post, footer and i AM willing to pay, but as i said, running a non-profit site, you dont have much insentive to throw money at the site, as you wont see it come back, i think Commerical users should pay a fee for the software, and a different fee for link removal, and i think non-profit sites should have it for free and pay for link removel an even better idea (as i said before) would be to have a "lite" version then enter the link removel key and get more features, but that'd be alot of work and (as someone said) easily cracked i think it would hurt the software to have to pay to use it, as people wouldnt try it, i know if i hadnt used it before i doubt id pay to try the software, but since ive been using it for like 3/4 yrs i know its WELL worth the money (though for non-profit site am not going to pay just to remove the link removel, but if i used it for a commerical site i would [and did plan to]) when version 8 comes out (and if it still hads google ads) i WILL be buying the link removel, but as ive said before, i feel ive been bullied into it which is the whole point of me posting in here i personally feel borg needs to find another way to make money other than google ads (i dont mean other than the forum) i think it might even encourage the "selfish ingrates" who remove the link-back, to also remove the google ads i have no problem with borg trying to make a living, i just think google ads are wrong, and i feel they degrade the forum and any site using it for free (if anyones happy to use it with google ads) ------------- S2H.co.uk - http://www.s2h.co.uk/wwf/" rel="nofollow - WebWiz Mods and Skins For support on my mods + skins, please use http://www.s2h.co.uk/forum/" rel="nofollow - my forum . |
Posted By: WebWiz-Bruce
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 3:04pm
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I have tried to avoid having any sort of ads on the site or within the software for many years and think that managing this for 5 years is pretty good. But the situation now is that the site and software has grown from a hobby into a full-time business that is at a stage now where is needs to expand and take on more staff to manage the workload. I have tried various different approaches over the year to keep things as cheap and free as possible especially for non-commercial users. I have tried the commercial and non-commercial license root for many years but found 90% of the time such a scheme was abused with things like large corporations claiming they are non-commercial because their web site doesn't actually take money and other crap excuses. I'm not sure why this has become such a hot topic at the moment as the Google Ads where introduced almost 7 months ago now, last September in version 7.95. The situation now is to either go down the root of Invisoin etc. and charge lots of money for the license, which I believe would kill this community or go down the Adware root, which keeps the free version and also keeps the overall cost of a full license down. I wish that all this wasn't necessary and that I give away all the software and everything for free but as a business the running costs (before I get paid) are over £15,000 ($28,000) per year which need to paid and include things like:-
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Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 3:11pm
There are millions of sites on the internet that use google ads on their sites personally I dont think it degrades them at all, I think people have got used to them. Infact I myself have found some very useful apps and services from google ads that I would not have found otherwise. You say you dont want to "throw" money at the site and see no come back, thats like saying " I dont want to pay to ride the train, because once I am at my destination I have nothing to show for it".. You are paying for a service whether you get something in return or not.. I would understand your argument if Borg was asking for £200 but hes asking for £30 odd.. You cant even go to dinner and movie for that kind of money these days.. |
Posted By: Scotty32
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 3:19pm
yet again completely missing my point  and the train analegy sucked  ------------- S2H.co.uk - http://www.s2h.co.uk/wwf/" rel="nofollow - WebWiz Mods and Skins For support on my mods + skins, please use http://www.s2h.co.uk/forum/" rel="nofollow - my forum . |
Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 3:23pm
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Scotty, There's a problem with giving away software to non-profits. e.g. I have a "non-profit" site - http://www.panasonicsucks.org - www.panasonicsucks.org - but that clearly shouldn't fall into the "get a free copy" category. Registered charities? (e.g. The Red Cross) Well, perhaps - that would be up to Bruce. If it were me, I'd give it away to registered charities. That's just good marketing sense though and with purely profit driven motives. But then Bruce might have to maintain 2 versions... NOT fun. I have no idea what your non-profit is and can't comment on that.
Now please don't take this the wrong way - I don't mean to sound like a jackass, but it really sounds like you know absolutely nothing about selling or marketing software. Anything else that Bruce can do would be much more "heavy handed" than just Google ads.
You're making me wonder if you know how the web works. It's almost always about wealth in one form or another. "All paths lead to Rome." Kind of like that. That can be prestige, reputation or whatever. But at the end of the day, those still "lead to Rome". You've got to pay the bills. If you've got a better suggestion how WWF can make money without being heavy handed, I'd LOVE to hear it. I'll be your #1 fan at that point. There are much easier ways to make money on the Internet than selling/creating software, but those people that choose to produce a real product with real value... Hats off to them. That's a hard path and I've got a lot of respect for that. The easy ways are just slimy and cheezy. I think Bruce has a lot more character than to go down that path. If you want to find out what real world programmers think, join the ASP or AISIP. ------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |
Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 3:28pm
lol!!! yeah I guess the train analagy does suck a bit!!!  OH WELL! I think lets agree to disagree.. I dont think all this arguing is getting anywhere.. This is to everyone, next time any of you write some software.. lets see you give it away for nothing and then see your reaction when people complain about some of the things you have done to it.. |
Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 3:39pm
What are you? Nuts? My next 2 releases are commercial all the way! The fact is that when you get paid to do something, you do a better hob. Whether that's because you care more or because you can devote more time to it is irrelevant. Look at all the abandoned projects at Source Forge. Hmmmm... Food for thought... Speaking of which I've wasted far too much time here posting when I should have been working! Heck... Need a little fun though! Actually, my last release is free - check it out - http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=68 - Email Protector . It works really well at the strongest level of protection. I might update it with another stronger one later or improve the looks. That will be free. But then again, that was just a fun project that didn't take me long to do either. ------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |
Posted By: Scotty32
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 3:42pm
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Bluefrog, i did post some suggestions, they might not be THAT great, but i did post some i think you did missunderstand my post too, i just really dont like the idea of google ads all over my self (tegwin, you said you like them, but its different if you put them there) and in your "non-profit" defintion, id prob fall under the same as you, rather than a charity. basically i have a site that i get no money from, so i guessed it'd be non-profit and tegwin, i stopped - becose its getting me no-where, people are missing my points - so i quit oh and on the "give software away for free and see how you like it" my site is pritty much like that, i have it up for my members to use for free which ive highly modified, (i enjoy running the site, and it gives me 'coding challenges' which i enjoy) and they seem to sl*g me off (as their not web wise) but completely forget am hosting the site and keeping it running and bla bla bla all for free - so i do know how annoying it can be anyway, why ya'll attacking me i DID state id get the licence soon as v8 comes out  go pick on the idiots who want stupid features that'd only benefit them, and want the google ads out but are not even concidering paying ------------- S2H.co.uk - http://www.s2h.co.uk/wwf/" rel="nofollow - WebWiz Mods and Skins For support on my mods + skins, please use http://www.s2h.co.uk/forum/" rel="nofollow - my forum . |
Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 4:03pm
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Scotty, It's not an easy problem to solve. Many companies struggle with revenue models. I do understand your post about ads being a pain in the ass. They are. I hate them. I don't install software with ads. I pay for it. That solves my problem. Not everyone can pay for software all the time. I also understand that. I don't have a problem with piracy in places where the price is a week's wages. And for people getting upset... I've had people swear at me and even gotten death threats for giving away free software. There are some real idiots out there. I didn't mean to come off like I was attacking you. I just wanted to point out how hard it is to make a legitimate living. I know you're willing to put out the few bucks for a license. It's the lame whiner freeloaders that are a pain. I realize that you're not in that crowd. Sorry if I came off as saying that you were. That was not my intention. Cheers, Ryan ------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |
Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 4:26pm
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It is the same from here. My posts were not directed at you scotty but at all the freeloaders . I too have a small business and its bloody difficult to survive. There is so much competition but we have to do whatever it takes to survive and if that means using Google or something else as the means to get more money then so be it. Best regards Chris ("Tegwin") |
Posted By: michael
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 4:41pm
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Group Hug ------------- http://baumannphoto.com" rel="nofollow - Blog | http://mpgtracker.com" rel="nofollow - MPG Tracker |
Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 4:52pm
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Posted By: Susan0722
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 5:19pm
Borg, I think your program is the best. Admitting that I have "tried" only a couple of others, I always come back to this one.
It is easy and friendly to someone like me who doesn't know what the hell they are doing when it comes to coding.
The installation instructions are in very layman terms which is also a great plus. I can't stand trying to read instructions that "assumes" a person trying to use a product knows what certain termanoligies are.
I don't think you need to explain yourself or the reason for your pricing and ads. Does google explain? Does MS explain? etc etc There is no room for dickering or bartering in today's competitive world of high prices.
That's the deal and that's final. Period. Like it, pay it, or move on I say to those who have a bug up their butt about having to pay for something that works so incrediblly well and is such a no brainer to apply.
I remember a year or two ago you got totally fed up with all the complaints and shut this place down for awhile. I hope that doesn't happen again. I like coming here and reading about all the new stuff.
Might I suggest in the future sometime, we try an "expiring" code such as Paint Shop Pro offers. Download the product try it for 30 days and if you like it, purchase the key. If you don't purchase the key it stops functioning. Just a thought and suggestion.
 For everyone else that still has their knickers in a twist, check out my siggy!  ------------- Pay for your copy of WebWIZ, it's worth it and you know it! |
Posted By: Tegwin
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 5:38pm
I hope too that you dont shut it down.. or if you do you only let a select few have access to it  Also the "30 day expiring " thing never works. Trust me there will be someone who will complain about it and write a crack for it. Its just the way life is sadly!!!! I am one of those people that has EVERYTHING registered (even things like WINZIP) which most people use the trial version forever even though they are not supposed to. I belive in rewarding people for their work, no matter how big they are.. I have never and WILL NEVER use pirated or unlicensed software on my machinne. |
Posted By: Susan0722
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 5:42pm
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You're right Teg, they do write cracks, it's a shame that some peoples lives are devoted soully to taking/stealing something form someone who has worked so hard. ------------- Pay for your copy of WebWIZ, it's worth it and you know it! |
Posted By: Susan0722
Date Posted: 15 March 2006 at 5:52pm
Scotty, I think I misunderstood too.  I hope you can forgive me. I wasn't attacking you personally, just the way I read your post.
Bluefrog, I visited your site, and was cracking up at the download for the Fire Hose sign!!  There are so many cases where that is needed! ------------- Pay for your copy of WebWIZ, it's worth it and you know it! |
Posted By: dpyers
Date Posted: 16 March 2006 at 12:59am
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I've put out a few campfires with mine. Didn't dare stand to close. But I don't think that's what people are referring to when they call me a "hoser".
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Lead me not into temptation... I know the short cut, follow me. |
Posted By: Bluefrog
Date Posted: 16 March 2006 at 9:06am
Guys that insist on spraying the entire bathroom really piss me off. (Oh, I'm soooo punny! ) And probably not many cases... More like most or all cases! What I do really like are those nice posh restaurants, bars, and hotels where the put ice in there! That's just cool! (Oh no! There I go again!) ------------- http://renegademinds.com/" rel="nofollow - Renegade Minds - Guitar Software http://renegademinds.com/Default.aspx?tabid=65" rel="nofollow - Slow Down Music |